UPDATED: To Vote, Or Not To Vote. That Is NOT The Question.

Donald Trump, Hillary Clinton and Christian Responsibility

christian vote donald trump hillary

Latest from the “mail bag”.

Periodically I will post a tweaked version of an email exchange I have had with a friend over an issue that I am being asked about regularly and that I know carries broader interest. Lately, I have received lots of questions around Donald Trump and especially  a recent Wayne Grudem post concerning the necessity of voting for Trump given the disastrous Hillary Clinton alternative. I hope you find it helpful as you continue to pray with me for both candidates, our country, the coming election and our daily responsibility to engage others on the topic.

From: XXX

To: Todd Wagner

Guys, I know politics are so emotional, but I am led to make sure you guys have seen this article written a few days ago by a respected theologian. I don’t know him personally but certainly respect him and have a couple of his books. I have listened to the Real Truth. Real Quick. regarding the current political situation. I absolutely believe Jesus is our Savior and not Air Force One. I know you know that I believe God can do all things, any thing, and that He is firmly in control.

You also know me well enough to surmise that I would not vote for Trump in almost any situation, but this is not one of them and I believe Wayne Grudem says it well in this article.

As a leader at Watermark I am always willing to be sharpened. I want to get it right, but currently can not align with the Real Truth Real Quick position. I strongly believe that a write in vote is a vote for Hillary who is a murderer, as you implied, and that is a deal killer for me. After you read this article please sharpen me as to where Grudem is in error. At this point, his view point is almost verbatim my current position.

In the end, we will probably agree to disagree on this issue but wanted to make sure you saw this at least.

XXX

PS – I am sorry I seem to occasionally seem to be the fly in the ointment. I know you know I love you all and pray for you regularly.


To: XXX

From: Todd Wagner

No fly in the ointment friend, glad we continue to seek what is best together. That Real Truth Real Quick was shot months ago, but now that the two candidates are who they are it is without a doubt more applicable than ever. I have read Grudem’s article and several others like it. I still stand by my statement in the Real Truth Real Quick  that there is a limit to the evil (incompetence/arrogance/childishness, etc…) that one can vote for. I continue to pray and listen as best I can to the Lord on whether or not Trump is a permissible option for me, especially given that Hillary is so obviously not. I know you will continue to do the same.

I believe there will be many people who genuinely love Jesus who will find a way to think they should, or in Grudem’s case, believe they must, vote for Trump. Romans 14:22 would apply here.

Since you were so compelled by the Grudem article, I thought I would share with you some additional perspectives that are worth reading as part of the “listening” process. The days ahead are going to be interesting to say the least and we should keep praying and listening. May truth and not fear of what could / will happen guide us. Our job is to do right and live with hope. May we never compromise what is right (Proverbs 25:26) or do anything out of fear (2 Timothy 1:7).

For now I guess the last article linked above could say eight.

Recently Added

For me the reason I am still unable to say I/we should pick Donald are found in the warnings/judgments in Isaiah 3:1-5 and Ecclesiastes 10:16-17. (It goes without saying why I personally cannot even consider Hillary given her stated views on matters of life, family and liberty). As I have said, there is a limit to the “evil” I can support no matter what the alternative is. I know a lot of people have quoted Spurgeon’s, “of two evils, choose neither”, and while I do think there is some relevance to his statement for us, it is even more relevant to keep reminding ourselves that we do NOT have to choose between these two.

As I said in the Real truth Real Quick, a vote for righteousness (even if it is a write-in righteousness) is never a wasted vote. I just today checked into what it takes to make a write-in candidate legitimate in my state but I think I can make a case that even if I could not cast a vote that would count in my state’s eyes, it would count as a stand for good and therefore not a waste. My vote does not have to be recognized to be righteous.

We need to watch closely in the days ahead and prayerfully discern if Trump’s childish and capricious behavior makes him just as dangerous (possibly more so) because we have NO IDEA what he childishly/capriciously might do. Proverbs 26:12 has some instruction for us here. A “man” who thinks he knows more than everyone else does is capable of doing what no one else thinks he should do. Where pride exists as a pattern, nothing should surprise us.

I cannot vote for a person who fits the description of a pronouncement of judgment or a “woe” on a land, even though I know a Jezebel kind of evil potentially awaits. See my tweet below:

I am praying and would love to help any leader to “do justice, love kindness and walk humbly with the Lord”, but if they will not, I will have a hard time willfully installing them as a leader.

I see why some devoted followers of Christ WILL vote for Rep platform who do not love the Republican nominee. I see why some devoted followers of Christ will NOT vote for Rep nominee and love the Rep platform.

Up until I vote, I will continue to listen and pray the Lord graciously, miraculously, and obviously transforms one of the candidates or supplies a new one that can somehow win. But even if they can’t win, I don’t have to choose what I cannot convince myself is wise (Proverbs 22:3).

The book is not closed for me yet and I understand why some well meaning people will want to vote against “Jezebel” by voting for the “child”.  Meanwhile, let’s stay at it by loving others with the gospel truth and sharing with others the better way.

May the Lord give us wisdom and grace.   Whatever we do, we should use the link I provided in the tweet below to keep us fully engaged.

James 1:5,

Todd
www.twitter.com/wordsfromwags
pastoraloffice@watermark.org
www.watermark.org
214-239-8809

Please note: I reserve the right to delete comments that are offensive or off-topic.

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5 thoughts on “UPDATED: To Vote, Or Not To Vote. That Is NOT The Question.

  1. I have Wayne grudem book systematic theology. Wayne is a very intelligent person I read his article and basically agree with it I don’t think some of you are taking Romans 13 one seriously God will cast The Last vote. We should pray for guidance of who to vote for. We can advise other people to pray for guidance but should not try to throw a guilt trip on them if you use guilt trips you are wrong from the beginning. I could say a lot more but the bottom line is pray for guidance.

  2. Sorry to hear Todd is obviously “waffling ” on the future policies for USA laws and culture. This election isn’t about the ridiculous candidates of Trump and Hillary Clinton IT CERTAINLY IS ABOUT the future for our children and grandchildren … Consider the differences 1) Marraige as God defines it in Scripture 2) Life vs Abortion (death of helpless) 3) Tax supported support by the $millions of Planned parenthood 4) Tax policy to increase income taxes vs economic policy designed to create private sector jobs 5) Gutting our military vs Rebuilding our military 6) policy to open the borders to illegal immigration vs policy to tighten infiltration of USA by radical jihadists embedded in open border/ immigration 7) MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL is Supreme Court justices that will ‘Rule the USA for the next 40-50 years 8) Crushing ISIS vs more weak handed approach 9) Second Ammendment rights to keep and bear arms to protect our families without federal govt oversight 10) Economic policy designed to reverse our job losses in the USA BY POORLY NEGOTIATED TRADE DEALS …. So, there’s a list of 10 issues that the difference is so stark it’s not even debatable from a Traditional / Christian perspective and my hope and prayer is that Church Leaders will wake up from their MILK TOAST THINKING AND BECOME REAL MEN AND WOMEN OF GOD AND SUPPORT OUR CHILDREN AND GRANDCHILDRENS FUTURE AND SUPPORT THE CANDIDATES THAT SUPPORT THESE 10 BASIC IDEALS THAT WE BELEIVE IN AND IN OUR HEARTS KNOW IS RIGHT.

    • Thanks for your comment Dave and glad you are reading and processing. As for me I am not waffling at all but have said repeatedly I do not currently see wisdom in supporting a candidate who espouses the things Hillary does or a candidate who has historically displayed the character and lack of wisdom Trump has. He is not bound to the platform of his party and he has shown he is not bound to the promise of his words. Let me unwafflingly repeat, “We need to watch closely in the days ahead and prayerfully discern if Trump’s childish and capricious behavior makes him just as dangerous (possibly more so) because we have NO IDEA what he childishly/capriciously might do. Proverbs 26:12 has some instruction for us here. A “man” who thinks he knows more than everyone else does is capable of doing what no one else thinks he should do. Where pride exists as a pattern, nothing should surprise us.”
      And, “Up until I vote, I will continue to listen and pray the Lord graciously, miraculously, and obviously transforms one of the candidates or supplies a new one that can somehow win. But even if they can’t win, I don’t have to choose what I cannot convince myself is wise (Proverbs 22:3).”
      And, “I believe there will be many people who genuinely love Jesus who will find a way to think they should, or in Grudem’s case, believe they must, vote for Trump. Romans 14:22 would apply here.”
      May your every word be wise, seasoned with salt and useful to the Lord. Praying the same for myself.

  3. Todd, There seems to a lot of confusion on this topic. The best way to arrive at a good decision is to investigate the true facts, issues and positions of each candidate and compare them. As Josh McDowell says “The evidence demands a verdict”. But a major hurdle to your impartial investigation is the Democratic Party and its propaganda machine, the national Media, of propaganda, misdirection, diversion, division, demonizing their opponents or specific groups. Here is their mantra that has been implemented for the very first time in a Presidential campaign to an extreme. This is a primer of their propaganda strategy: “Propaganda must always address itself to the broad masses of the people. (…) All propaganda must be presented in a popular form and must fix its intellectual level so as not to be above the heads of the least intellectual of those to whom it is directed. (…) The art of propaganda consists precisely in being able to awaken the imagination of the public through an appeal to their feelings, in finding the appropriate psychological form that will arrest the attention and appeal to the hearts of the national masses. The broad masses of the people are not made up of diplomats or professors of public jurisprudence nor simply of persons who are able to form reasoned judgment in given cases, but a vacillating crowd of human children who are constantly wavering between one idea and another. (…) The great majority of a nation is so feminine in its character and outlook that its thought and conduct are ruled by sentiment rather than by sober reasoning. This sentiment, however, is not complex, but simple and consistent. It is not highly differentiated, but has only the negative and positive notions of love and hatred, right and wrong, truth and falsehood. Propaganda must not investigate the truth objectively and, in so far as it is favourable to the other side, present it according to the theoretical rules of justice; yet it must present only that aspect of the truth which is favourable to its own side. (…) The receptive powers of the masses are very restricted, and their understanding is feeble. On the other hand, they quickly forget. Such being the case, all effective propaganda must be confined to a few bare essentials and those must be expressed as far as possible in stereotyped formulas. These slogans should be persistently repeated until the very last individual has come to grasp the idea that has been put forward. (…) Every change that is made in the subject of a propagandist message must always emphasize the same conclusion. The leading slogan must of course be illustrated in many ways and from several angles, but in the end one must always return to the assertion of the same formula.” Who said this and when? Compare the author and the Democratic Party and there are “eery” similarities in techniques. I hope you will undertake a thorough investigation to help us better understand this dilemma that we face.

    Your great admirer, Herb Thomas

    • Thanks Herb..I don’t know for sure who said it but would not be surprised if it was Hitler, Stalin or Olinsky, all of whom used these principles effectively whether the wrote the comments or not. Our job is to live out 2 Timothy 4:1-5 whether we see it “work” or not. Meanwhile, I am praying with you that the Lord gives us wisdom as we discuss, lead and ultimately vote. Praying with your for our leaders, our neighbors, our words and our choices.

      Glad to be in the battle for Truth with you.